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Lifting for throwers

Various authors -- 2004.04.14

From the Ring, a collection of interesting postings.

I've read and heard that the throws are 50% legs, 30% torso and 20% arm.

On the Ring, I've read a lot about variety training for the legs which is important to continue to progress. Yet, I have read nothing about variety in low back training.

The low back muscles, the spinal errectors, in addition to isometrically contracting to stabilize the spine during squats and deadlifts, extend the spine, rotate the spine and side bend the spine.

Many training routines only include the isometric contraction holding the spine in an arch. This may be in part to fear of low back pain/injury which is an extremely justified reason. Anyone who has had back pain will often do anything to avoid its potential return.

The biggest myth about back training with athletes is that back pain is from strained muscles. IT IS NOT! It is from the posterior ligaments that make up the back part of the disc.

Lifting anything puts some pressure on this tissue. Obviously the more weight you lift, the more pressure. Bending also puts pressure on this tissue. So heavy lifting in a bent over position can really put a ton of force on your back, which is why many people advocate to keep the arch at all times and keep the bar close to your legs in stiff leg deadlifts.

However, heavy stiff leg deadlifts bending forward and then extending can be a very productive lift if done properly.

First, it does not need to be done often. Maybe once every two weeks at most.

Second, keep bar close to legs.

Third, keep tension in back muscles. Don't relax at bottom.

Fourth, don't pause at bottom. Down and back up immediately. (Not fast, just no pause)

Fifth, do not do with heavy weight if you have had significant back pain within last six months, twelve months if over 40.

Sixth, don't use belt. Inhale and hold breath during lowering and lifting. Exhale at top (another reason not to pause at bottom :))

Seventh, and what can be most important, test the lift. You can use this test for any lift. Lie down on stomach, put hands in push up position, keep hips and back relaxed, push just upper body up, your hips should just come off floor about an inch, any higher and back muscles will turn on which you don't want. For you stiff guys, you can put hands forward more so you can lock out elbows with hips just off floor. Like a lazy girl's push up. Repeat ten times as warm up for back. Make a mental note of how much motion you have. Do the stiff leg bent over lift. Then lie down and recheck motion with "press up". If less motion/now painful/or more stiff, your back not ready for that lift. Loss of motion bending in extension is the first warning sign of back pain. If you don't check, you will never know. This test can be done standing hands on hips backbend, but not as effective. I recommend at least one repetition of press up after every set of every lift that may threaten your back. When your spinal errectors are full of blood/pumped up the press up feels funny. Try to relax muscles and concentrate on amount of motion and whether there is any pain.

So now you can work low back in flexion/extension plane. For variety you can also do sidebends. And I don't mean a 30# dumbbell for 3x20 at the end of a workout. Make it PART of the workout, with wrist straps and a heavy dumbell for reps of 5-10. This exercise for your low back is actually safer for your low back because you don't bend forward.

For more variety, you can twist against resistance. Not the broomstick helicopter motion. The best idea I have for true rotation without any other muscle activation is to use a device like M-F sells. (Check www.mfathletics.com on page 29) A rotation shield you hook up to a cable pully weight stack. M-F device says for hips, but could be used for low back. PLus this exercise safer than bending forward also.

In addition to sidebends and rotation working spinal errectors, they work internal and external obliques well.

Please anyone feel free to comment/criticize these ideas.

Train smart!

Matt Spiller

If other Ring respondents have access to the results with light shots of the spinners you asked about, it would be interesting to compare the numbers to Sarul's:

Edward Sarul (excerpted from Kogelstoten Edward Sarul by J. Swinkels, from the Dutch magazine Sportgericht circa 1984-85)

Training Shot PRs:
4kg: 29.03m
5kg: 25.58m
6kg: 23.44m
7.26kg: 22.03m (in training)

Meet Shot PR Progression:
1977: 16.74m (age 18)
1978: 18.24m
1979: 19.06m
1980: 19.80m
1981: 18.40m (left-handed due to injury)
1982: 20.65m
1983: 21.68m
1984: 20.89m

Lift PRs
Snatch: 127.5kg
Back Squat: 260kg
Benchpress: 185kg
Hi Pull to chin: 170kg
Clean: 150kg

Jump PRs
Standing long jump: 3.43m
Standing 3 hops (like frog): 10.80m
Standing 5 hops: 16.80m
Standing vertical jump: 0.91m
Standing triple jump: 10.50m

Sprint PRs
20m from blocks: 2.8s
20m, flying start: 1.91s
60m from blocks: 6.8s

Height: 1.98m
Weight: 120kg

Shaun P.
18:05 PST, 11/27/2001

Hammergod: Training

Hammergod...

I think that in the question that you asked of me there is a worrying mistake. You talk about "Circuits - typically 5 exercises 5x5 performed very explosively" is half right: namely the 5x5 performed explosively, but the first part is the worrying part for me.

I would never do circuits or anywhere near five exercises, as this is comnpletely against what I would be trying to achieve with my lifting. What I have gleaned from your earlier posts you seem to have been overdoing it way too much in the weightroom.

I am a big believer in the "Less is More" principle, and you must never lose focus of your actual goal: which is to throw farther, and your lifting must be thought about in these terms. It is different if you are trying to increase bulk...but I do not think this is your problem, nor mine...or even if you are trying to increase your Bench Press or Squat Max, but my interest was in throwing further.

To this end, my weightlifting was not intended to wear me out, but to improve my power and leave me fresh to throw far in training or competition, and was based on a few simple ideas.

1. My basic exercises were those that were most important to me: Bench press, Squat and Hang Snatch. Usually my Bench and Snatch were on one day and Squat was on another.

2. I would lift four days a week, Mon, Tues, Thurs and Fri.

3. My sessions would last about one hour and never more than 90 minutes unless I was sitting around talking a lot!

4. Each exercise was performed at high intensity, usually with quite a lot of rest between sets. Basically each rep was as fast as I could perform it. Every exercise was looking for quality first.

5. Sets were usually 5x5 at between 60% and 75% of 1RM. Bench would also include 3x3's at a higher load on occasions. Hang Snatch would also include a workout called "Rounds" which I found very effective, which was 3,2,1,...3,2,1...3,2,1 three small pyramids with each set a little higher starting point than the previous and all at a high intensity.

6. Some support exercises were added to each workout, usually a 3x8 at 2-3 exercises, such as twists, shoulder raises and one or two abdominal exercises.

7. Usually each week would include a hard workout and a easier workout for each main exercise, where the weights would be lower, although the speed and intensity always remained high.

This approach allowed me to throw hard when I needed to and allow me to develop the intensity of my throwing, as I felt that this allowed me to improve faster.

One importaint point is that a lot of attention was focussed on the way that I performed the lifts as they had to be as effective as possible and related to the intention to throw far. For example, Squats were performed not too deep, but focussed on pushing up from the bottom of the lift, through the balls of the feet, heels lifting off the ground as I came up, finishing at full extension on my toes, with a long acceleration through the upward movement. This was a similar approach to the Bench Press, looking to accelerate the bar through the top of the lift. The Hang Snatch was viewed as a lift to promote Rate of Force Development, so was a very short but explosive movement from a slight hang, concentrating on pulling through to full extension, getting up on the toes.

This was all to ensure that the lift had effective carry-over to the throw. I always wanted to make sure that force could be applied through the balls of the feet and not the heels, as you cannot jump from your heels, and nor can you throw from them.

If I had to train for the hammer, which I presume you are interested in, I would concentrate on three exercises, namely Front Squats or High-bar Back squats (or a mixture of the two), Snatch and Cleans, with the emphasis on the Squat and Clean, with each exercise being performed quite heavy once a week.

Together with this, concentrate on your throws being at high intensity as much as possible, particularly the slightly lighter implements, such as a 15lb hammer.

Remember, what you are trying to do is to get the effective training effect, which occurs during "Super-compensation" or recovery. If you do not allow for effective recovery you will not improve. If you continue to overload the system, the system will deteriorate. there is a big difference between training really hard and training really smart...a strong work ethic can also be a bad thing.

Good Luck

Shaun P

philj
16:35 PST, 09/06/2001

Russian Hammer training (long post)

Just wanted to share some information I have garnered about the Russian's Hammer Training programs over the years. I am particularly interested in training methods, as opposed to significant technical evaluation. Don't think I regard technique as unimportant, but it is interesting to see similar performances from very different techniques. The similarity between Yuri Sedykh and Lance Deal is very strong in the element of training method, and yet their expression of technique is quite different.

I would also like to know if anyone has trained with this method, and what effect it has had on their performances.

Based on information provided by GLM, it seems the Russian's discovered in the 70s that many of their throwers were not throwing very far relative to how strong they are. Research into this problem showed that this was a result of training like lifters, and training the max. and absolute strength separate from the lifting. Zaitchuk proposes his training is meant to address this problem.

It seems Zaitchuk basically sets up training schedules something similar to the following:-
# Calisthenics style warm-up and stretching
# Sprinting type exercises (stride outs, acceleration runs, sprints)
# Some multi-turns with the hammer (start with swings, without swings, gyros (Lance drill), etc.)
# Throws at 50-70% training max. alternating between Light and normal.
# Some maximal throws
# Lifting exercises: (probably only one exercise here in Zaitchuk's scheme)
- Legs strengthening (Step-ups or lunges or one legged squats, etc.)
- Back strengthening (stiff leg deadlift or good mornings, etc.)
# Throws at 3-5 m less than earlier training max. alternating between heavy and normal.
# Jumping exercises: Standing long jumps or bounds or triple jumps
# Twisting exercises: walk twists
# Kettle bell (Pud) throws:

What is particularly interesting is the way training is monitored to avoid over training. You do this training each day on a two days on and one off, or three on and one off. The intensity of the lifting is set after the max. throws depending on the outcome of the throwing you do after the lifting (for example if you cannot throw within 3-5 m of the training max. after the lifting, it was too hard.) You set the volume of the throwing after the lifting by the training result the next day. If it decreases by more than 1.5 m then there was too much volume in the heavy/normal throwing session. When your performances level off, it is time to change the hammer weights, and the exercises. This approach is very specific and is completely different than periodized training. Lance also monitors his training in a similar way, where weights are cut back if performances in the hammer are dropping. He essentially used it as a method to detect fatigue.

Another example was provided by Bondarchuk to an Australian 70m Hammer thrower who has strength levels of Snatch 120k, Power Clean 165k, Squat 270k.

Day 1
* 9k hammer x 16 throws
* 15k plate x 15 forward throws
* 15k plate easy throws to left
Day 2
* 7.26k hammer x 10 throws
* 6k hammer x 10 throws
* Plate twists (Sedykh twists) 40k, 4 x 10
* Straight leg deadlift (bar not to touch the ground) 120k, 5 x 3
* Step ups 90k 2 x 5
Day 3
* REST

My discussions with Yuri during his visit to NZ also indicated the strength displayed by the Australian thrower would be good for 75-80m.

Lance Deal's training also seems to be similar, something like the following:-
* Throw; different weight hammers
* Lift; one exercise of each; pull, squat, jump, twist/ab

By lifting integrated with your throwing, and avoiding lifting too heavy you prevent overloading the system, and compromising your technical training.

A Russian formula which calculated the distance thrown based on specific measures of strength, indicated Yuri would throw ~76m, however he was actually throwing 84m+ which worked out to be a coefficient (as the Russians called it) of 1.1. This clearly suggests the importance of throwing and specific strength as related to performance. It also suggests the Western method of training does appear to be more focused on improving Weight lifting strength.

Additionally the Russians recommend 10,000 throws per year, which works out to be about 200+ per week. This is a lot of throwing with the hammer which is why many throws are at lower intensity, but attempting to combine this with weight lifting puts extreme load on an individual. I do not think this style of training would necessarily apply directly to the other throws events.

References:
1991 visit to New Zealand by Yuri Sedykh and Anatoliy Bondarchuk
1991 Aussie Thrower Magazine Vol. 6 No. 2
1998 visit to New Zealand by Lance Deal
1998 my visit to Eugene, Oregon to train with Lance Deal and Stuart Togher
2000 July The Ring Posting by Lance
2000 September The Ring Posting 1 by GLM
2000 September The Ring Posting 2 by GLM
2001 August The Ring Posting by Shaun P (of particular note the element of maximum power output being at 45% of 1RM)
2001 September personal e-mail discussion with GLM

I have deliberately avoided providing the names of The Ring posters, they may wish to divulge their names, if you don't know them already.

Shaun P.
05:49 PST, 08/11/2001

Ron S and Viking: Power

Ron S and Leg Work,

A similar approach to leg work is taken. One important factor that has to be considered is to try to get constant acceleration through the lift, looking for high speed at the top of the lift. This is true for both Bench and Squats.

I would work with usually sets and reps in the 5 x 5 range, at around 70% of 1RM, with only a few variations. The intention was that every rep should be at a minimum of 90% of the maximum POWER at that particular weight. If the power was below that level, you are no longer developing Fast Twitch fibres, but rather increasing Slow Twitch, which is detrimental to the system, at least for a thrower. Singles at this level are not that valuable if you can lift five reps at the same power, without dropping below that 90% max power level. For some people this might be 4 reps or 6 reps, but for me this was 5 reps, as the sixth rep was definitely slower than the fifth.

Another way of looking at this was the heaviest weight with which you can perform 5 reps in six seconds. This gives a good indication of what the appropriate weight would be for a set when working for power.

One important reason for me following this programme was the unnacceptable risk of injury for me peforming heavy squats. Having suffered from Chronic Back problems for more than 15 years, my back was always going to be the weak link in the equation. I flound that I could get more than acceptable results from moving reasonable weights fast, so my workouts were usually 5 x 5's at a weight of 140kg-180kg. The heaviest squat that I ever attempted was 230kg for five reps, which is nothing special for a shot putter. I could however see my power increasing, and my estimated 1RM was also increasing.

Viking and sets-reps

As I have already mentioned, my set-rep range of choice, at least for Bench and Squats, was a 5x5.

Earlier on I would do a few weeks of 5 x 10's or 8's, but this was because I had not lifted for eight years, so it was just to get used to the exercise. I was never concerned about gaining size, as anyone who has ever met me will tell you that is not my problem, so I was never concerned with stimulating Growth Hormone production which sets to failure will benefit.

The key factor for me was stimulating Fast Twitch and therefore Power, and for that I had to maintain that EVERY rep was performed at a level of greater than 90% of my maximum power at that weight. Even my sets of eight were performed at speed! I was never concerned with MAX attempts in Bench and Squat, as I felt that the risk of injury was too high and I found that this was also not important for me.

It should be mentioned that my particular circumstances was important in this decision to focus on power, in that I was aiming to go from an inactive business man to an Olympic athlete in a little over 12 months. Therefore I could not risk injuries nor did I feel that my time was best spent building a big base and developing 1RM.

My Olympic Lifts, or in my case the Hang Snatch was the lift of Choice, were based around 5 x 5 or 3 x 3 Workouts, with the inclusion of a workout known as "rounds" which I learned about from Dan Lange. This would be 3,2,1,,,3,2,1,,,3,2,1 with the weights increasing in each small pyramid, so that the second and third singles were around or above 1RM levels. This proved to be very effective.

Some sprinters were working on a similar basis to this in Squats and Bench Press, only training for power, and some Speed Skaters also showed impressive results with this training, but as the MuscleLab was very new, it was very much experimental in terms of Training strategies and Periodisation. One interesting factor that came out from the sprinters, is that they did not "Feel" as strong as they had done previously, as they had not put in the same workloads, or Strength Building phase in their training. This was despite the fact that their Power was very high and their 1RM levels were as high than they had ever been, the mental "need" for a strength building phase could not be overlooked. I did not have this need as I had not lifted in so long that I was confident with the strength gains that I was making even though my focus was on Power.

I hope that this makes sense and answers some of your questions.

Shaun Pickering

Track Mutant
19:36 PST, 07/26/2001

limiting your lifting choices (long message)

Limiting your lifting choices may not be the best idea. Now you may have specific reasons for keeping your lifting to the bare minimum in terms of variety, but variety is the spice of life.

I agree with the other posts so far, that the four lifts of choice really depend on the event that you are doing, but getting too specific in your training can lead to some serious muscular imbalances. These imbalances may not show up this year or even next, but they will come back to haunt you either in terms of injuries, most likely, or in some form of the technique you can't do, because of not practicing the motion in the gym.

I was a hammer thrower and agree that the snatch was the single best exercise for throwing the hammer. When I snatched 200 pound I threw 200'. When my snatch went to 215 my distance went to 214'9". (With that direct correlation I always wanted to be able to snatch more weight.) The second most important exercise was the front squat. Next was the clean, and for me next was the bent over row.

My choices as such lead to a stong combination of legs and back. (My back numbers were much more impressive than my leg numbers.) Now I choose those exercises to answere your question. However, the true question should be why do you choose those exercises.

Snatch is obvious, the straight one to one correlation for me was a no brainer. As I learned to apply more force to the ground and stand up harder and faster the weight in the snatch went up, the motion with the hammer was so similar that there was a correlation of feet to pounds that was mathematically hard to ignore.

Front squat is not the usual choice for most. I put this number two, for the increased leg strength. Cleans are a good mimick with the snach, but I cleaned 285 with the 200' throw and went to 315 to throw 214'; 30 pounds for fifteen feet, not bad, but not the correlation of the snatch. Finally I chose the bent over row. This is a back exercise that I grew extremely strong with.

Using the bent over row as my fourth choice leads to the question as to why. I could feel with the bent over row, the leg power and push into the floor with my feet, better than the snatch and the clean. Pulling with my back muscles while holding myself tight against the heavy weight (350 pounds on my nineth set for five reps without straps)gave me the power to pull against the hammer. I always felt the motions were very similar, even if the body positions were not the same. The difference between a bent over row and a good hammer position is the bend in the legs. If you hold your body in the same position, and bend your legs so that your weight shifts back over your heals, then you are in good hammer throwing position. For me this worked well.

This is the reason for the other lifts as well. Front squat is a good developer of muscle, but I use it mainly to train the core of my body and what it is supposed to do. Resisting the urge to fall forward when the weight is pulling you this way is great for throwing the hammer. Being able to sink into the hole allows the athlete to understand how one set of muscels can be tight, while another set of muscles should be loose, and while another set should be somewhere in between.

Thinking of weight lifting as only weight lifting can get the thrower into a bad trap. Lifting the amount of weight necessary to accomplish a goal to help you learn to throw farther is what weight training for the thrower should be about. How many hammer throwers clean and snatch with tight traps. (This is proper technique for an Olympic lifter.) Let the traps down and relax during the motion, put them into the position they will be in during the throw, and don't use them to lift the weight. While working on these two lifts, concentrate on how you take the weght off of the floor.

Keeping the chest upright and the back aligned in the proper position can teach you as much about how to throw as actually pulling the weight overhead, or to the shoulders. The explosion is the main reason most throwers Olympic lift, however, those who throw far with good technique, know how to explode and how to train that explosion with their Olympic lifts to mimic what they need to do in the ring.

I feel that eliminating all of the other lift will eliminate your chances of a long and successful throwing career. You may have success in the short run, and that may be all that you are concerned with, but for the long hall, not training the entire body, and especially the weaker points of the body, will lead to some serious problems.

Maybe you are a shot putter. You think I do not need to do bicep curls, that is for the beach and bodybuilding crowd. However, you know that a good bench or incline press is necessary (or so you think)for good throws. Well training bench press and triceps to help that bench press, without training biceps is asking for elbow trouble by the muscular imbalance you will create.

I apologize for the length of the message, and I am a true believer in making the process simple, but limiting the number of exercises to four will limit the athletes ability train and have the body respond properly.

Ken Norlen
UC Davis Throws Coach