Jud Logan

18:22 PST, 12/14/99

Good discussion on how strong to throw how far. National Hammer Coach Stewart Togher has good model- one that I am attempting to follow. For the hammer, we traditionally use 3 balls per practice- Heavy (18 or weight) Normal (16) and light (6K or 14). Using the Togher model, we use the heavy ball for specific strength and working on positions in the technique. (Since the system is slightly slower/ and most can feel a greater counter and pull of the hammer) The 16 is used for establishing a rhythm or tempo and of course is the comp. weight. The light ball is used for developing speed patterns and allowing the athlete to challenge overspped situation encountered in a competitive situation. This being said- the weight room is used to gain a general strength level to accomodate the hopefully greater forces forthcoming. He will traditonally use a 3 or 4 week block of exercises followed by an unload week in which volume of lifting is drastically reduced and more rest days are given.
The key to watch during the 3 or 4 week block is the light ball- If I am a 75 Meter thrower, I need to be able to reproduce that throw with the light ball every practice for 3-4 throws with consistency over this block- If my light ball starts to fall, my weight room work is reduced 5-10% until the neural patterns for 75 meters return- if they remain consistent- I may continue my progressive overload from workout to workout. Recently I was progressing nicely on a Midgrip Snatch/Chain B. Squat workout and was adding 2-5 kilos per snatch and 20-40 lbs. per squat workout. THEN, i got a little crazy and jumped 100 lbs in the Chain Back Squat in the 3rd week- for 5 days my light ball was destroyed, down 3-5 meters- I lifted to heavy and paid the price. I shifted one week early to a rest week and it took the full 7 days to return the 14 to consistent throws in the 74-76M level. This phase beforehand had produced bigger jumps- with all hammers. I have now started a progressive range power clean/ 1 1/4 back squat routine and hope to keep emotions in check and sytematically progress the weight, without interuppting the technique so dramatically- after 4 weeks, I will unload for a week and hope to throw the 14, 80 meters.
Toghers point is do what you can recover from- it is understood, that at times you are in a tear down phase, but if neural patterns are severly effected with the light implement- you are probably on the course for "Over training"- and permanent technique flaws are possible.
I agree we must get strong- but that is what yearly periodized training is for. If you are a freak for recovery- god bless you- lift heavy and throw far, but for most- attempting to get stronger- and thinking I will get my technique back later are heading down a dangerous road.

David Barron asked about what other throws, so called "less technical events" might be able to train heavier.
I beieve the shot putter should have a 3 ball system as well- and if the light ball, whether that be a 14 or 15 is used, glide or spin- over training is still a concern. For the discus we use "range throwing" as the barometer for training stimulus. I have written an article on Bondarchuks Range throwing model for: Hammerthrow.com.
The point being this: regardless of event, squatting and cleaning heavy 2-3 times a week as more people than you would believe still do, is detrimental to the learning curve needed for technical development. The key here is to keep acurate training logs to understand your personal volume that can be handled in terms of recovery. This is why for my discus and shot people I like the Louie Simmons speed day-(for bench) the volume/tonnage is controllable and the damage to muscle memory is minimal. I have to make assesments to how much heavy assistance work can be done- judged by how it effects their throwing. Some people can do tons of heavy partial or board bench in the 2nd day- and some can only handle 2 weeks before a change of stimulus or reduction in volume and intensity is needed. As far as the highland games go- my experience is: the more event specific training you do, the less weight room work required. Although it seems they can lift really heavy- not practice the disciplines as often and seemingly still compete at a higher level- the mystery being, much like a decathalete, which event do you train and how often and still fit in 4 weight training days.
Seems like a job for Coach MAC and how they peiodize the training of Ryan Vierra.
As to Zaitchuks model- my calculator blew up trying to figure out if I am any good or not Dennis!

Dave Caster

Your comments regarding Sarul and the similarity to Westside approaches is right on . . . curiously, we have recently opted to only use the percent strategies without the max effort day as of late (using cleans/push presses by percents plus a close-grip snatch on the day that the max effort lower body work is traditionally done), and the throwing results are much better. We had come to the conclusion capacities-wise that the things Sarul was superior at had to do with his efficiency in the 50-70% 1RM range in comparison to his peers . . . our feeling was that 1RM didn't mean as much (that is, really didn'tr mean a damn thing) in comparison to how much faster he was at pushing the submax weights in comparison to his peers.

Interestingly, we have found that mixing this sort of lifting with a wide variety of shot weights is very productive.

For powerlifters, max strength is very important. We are finding that for the throwers, the rate of force development means a lot more.

I think it is clear that you already know this, and you have a lot to teach us. So I am very interested to hear your inputs regarding appropriate weighttraining for throwers, shotputters in particular.

John Smith

Jud brings up a very important point of training throwers,HOW TO GET STRONG AND IMPROVE THROWING AND TECHNIQUE AT THE SAME TIME.Since we don't have the luxury of the ten year plan like many european systems, we must learn how to maximize time and give our athletes the crash course in Strenght training, throwing, technique, and Other stuff in a limited amount of time. Over time and many different levels of throwers I have found that in the off-season 1 heavy squat workout per week, 1 heavy bench workout per week, 1 heavy pull workout per week and 4 throwing days is about all any athlete could take and make gains in the weight room and out in the throwing field. I'm like Jud in the fact, that the throwing dictates the lifting. If the throwing is getting better week by week, than the lifting stays the same. If the throwing takes a dump, the lifting changes along with some throwing volume.Jud is running a heavy workout/speed workout every week while I run heavy weeks and speed weeks.I do not throw on Pull day and squat day. But will throw on the upperbody day after the workout. I try to set up a day of rest 2 days after the heavy squat workout because your body is shot and worthless anyway.

Squats in the off-season may look like this in a 4 week block. Week#1 overload safety squats(negative training)Week#2 % box squats, Week #3 Heavy back squats with or without chains, Week #4 a different depth %box squat. I also use the boards and chains but most of the time on the top end of a bench workout for example Reg.Grip bench 5x135,185,235,285,315,Followed by a 3 board bench 3x325,340,355. I also use a band bench (negative training) followed by cambered bench. Or close grip bench followed by reg grip chain bench. Thier are many combinations.

Jud is also correct in pointing out that a huge jump in weight, even though you can make it, will cost you a price in your throwing. Making even increases over time in the weight room will keep the throwing stable.The name of the game is recovery and you must obey it. Learning what each athlete can do and recover from is the art of the weight room. I choose an athletes weights and reps as they go up until they fail.When they fail, then we jump to another partial exercise or top end exercise (like board bench and chains) and go for 3-4 more sets until they fail. Each failure becomes a new goal for the next time on that exercise for the amount of reps they missed at. I take what the body gives you for the day and then move on, unless we are in a speed week then the goal is a little more wieght (5-10lbs) than the last time with the same or greater speed.

I thought Jud brought up a good point and I thought I would comment on this. Also the 3 ball system works very nicely for the shot (been doing it for 14 years)

The stuff about the Europeans being much weaker than the Americans is a Fallacy they have been trying to promote for years. The top level european throwers are very strong with a few of them being almost international class Olympic Lifters. This was the junk that was put out about Timmerman for years. Even though in real life the guy had a 485lb power clean, and I personally watched him in 1987 at Purdue Univ. do 505 speed bouncepad triples on the bench. He also was a massive squatter. His bodyweight to strenght ratio was one of the best of all time. One of our all-time great javelin throwers made a point at a clinic about how weak Timmerman was because he told him how much he could lift. This was common pratice among the germans for years which even had a disinformation program as part of its program.

Shaun Pickering

I have been reading with interest the posts from Crystal Ken, (Hi Lee!) and the related discussions about the relative strength of Sarul and Matson.

My concern as a thrower was always with regard to specific strength, or the type of strength that was truly applicable to the throw. Luckily I was not caught up in how strong I could get or how much I could bench press. I took pride in the fact that I was probably the weakest 20m thrower in the world.

But, as we have said many times, strength is relative and I feel what is more important than how much weight you can lift is how much weight can you move fast! This of course has been used very successfully by many throwers, but the example of Sarul in one that is referred to a lot.

From my own experience, with a best Shot Put of 20.45m (67'2"), I had a one time max in the Bench Press of 180kg (400lbs). I only tried my max one time, but what was significant about that max lift was that prior to that attempt, I had never lifted more than 125kg (275lbs) which I would lift in a 5x5. This lift also came after 5 months of beginning training after 8 years of no lifting. When I started out I was unable to Bench 200lbs for 10 reps.

I believe that the reason for being able to improve so rapidly, but more importantly to develop the kind of specific strength that would enable me to throw reasonable distances, was because I was training for power and made use of a machine that enabled me to measure the power in my lifting accurately and on a regular basis.

This machine has been known variously over the past few years as the BioRobot, the ErgoPower and now the MuscleLab. In all of its incarnations, it is a machine based upon the work of Carmelo Bosco, an exercise physiolgist, who hepled develop a system whereby your training routines are based around the power level that you are generating.

One of the important principles is that you do not set the number of reps at a particular weight, but do as many beneficial reps as possible, but no more. The philosopy is simple, everybody has a different physiological make up and therefore with two athletes with equal 1RM levels, four reps at a particular weight may be too many for one athlete and too few for the other. Neither athlete is getting full benefit from the workout.

If we are talking about specificity of training, in order to train for power, each of you lifts, every rep, must be at a power level greater than 90% of your maximum power at a particular weight. You only stimulate fast twitch muscle above 90% of your maximum power, if you lift at below 90% of Max. Power, you are no longer stimulating fast twitch but rather developing slow twitch. Not only will continuing with the reps not be advantageous to the system, it is actually detrimental to the system.

This is applicable to any weight, as with each weight you can determine your max power, then you work within the accurate boundaries and discontinue your reps when you drop below 90% of that power level. When the weight is very heavy, you may not be able to move the bar very fast but it may still be at near maximum speed. This is why lifting at maximum can have a beneficial effect on you speed. (Bosco has shown that lifting at Max has a very beneficial effect on Testosterone levels)

Most of my workouts in the BP were based around a 5x5 at 125kg, but they were performed with good power. This also had a postive effect on moving my Force/Velocity curve to the right, meaning that I was able to move relatively light loads fast, which is very much more applicable and valuable to shot putting where you are trying to move a 16lb ball!

Shaun

Brad, lifting at maximum weight you are always moving the bar at maximum speed, it is just not that fast. There is, however some serious benefits to testosterone levels from attempting 1RM. According to Bosco, there is a significant 45% increase in testosterone levels from this maximum lift. Testosterone does not directly affect the strength of a contraction, but greatly affects the speed of a contraction, hence a great increase in power from lifting 1rm. This explains why people always used to promote Maximum strength in order to improve speed. This is also why you feel better after lifting at Max.

Bosco suggests to include one exercise at maximum levels once every 7-10 days in order to keep the testosterone levels elevated. As an interesting example of this, Jonathon Edwards, WR holder in triple Jump, has a PR in the Power Clean of 145kg at 70kg bodyweight. His normal workout in season consists of a 3x2 or 3x1 in the clean at 95%-100%, every 7-10 days. 3 days prior to his first 60ft jump, he tried, but failed, three attempts at a then max clean of 137.5kg. He still got the benefits of the increased testosterone levels.

High power in all you lifts is the key, whatever the weight. Slow reps do not help you to increase power, although they can prove useful if you are looking for Hypertrophy as it greatly stimulates GH production

Good luck

Shaun

Phat man

Like most of you, I've been glad to read all these related speed-strength posts lately. Props to you Crystal Ken for getting the ball rolling!

I'd encourage everyone you to include some of this speed type training into your regime if you haven't already.

I don't want to spend a lot of time with a long post, because I'd just be rehashing what others have already pointed out.

So, mix in the speed work with strength work in the off-season. The heavy strength work should cause the weight you use for your speed work to increase.

If you had a choice of doing your % squats 12 x 2 x 60% of 300 pounds (resting 45 seconds) or using 60% of 400 pounds, which do you think would generate more power?

In-season, stick more or even exclusively to % training. What I also like about the % (speed) training is that it doesn't beat my body up as much as doing a 'traditional' 5 x 5 x 80%.

If you want to continue with heavy work in-season, I'd suggest doing it during the 50-70% of the season and do it after you do your % training. Keep the reps low, sets down, and technique very strict.

This is NOT a good time to try Randall Strossen's 20 rep to failure squats. Higher reps to failure will take A LOT more time for you to recover from than a heavy triple.

Training hard is not the same thing as training smart.

Train smart, rest, repeat.

Phat Man.